All-Time Top 10 Heavyweights. Who's Missing?
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes
A good list, no question. All ten are among the best heavyweights of all-time. Such lists, however, are designed to make the reader ask "Where is fill-in-the-blank"? This list is no exception. So who do you think is the most glaring omission from ESPN's list of the top ten heavyweights of all-time?
We offer nine alternatives to those selected by ESPN ... but even that may not be sufficient if you were hoping to show your support for Wladimir Klitschko, Floyd Patterson, Riddick Bowe, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Ken Norton, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Corbett or some other heavyweight you feel has been unjustifiably overlooked.
Vote in our poll and let us know what you think ...
Comments
Lists like this are always difficult and very subjective, much like baseball lists–how does one look at Ty Cobb with a lifetime .367 batting average but who played in the deadball era. The same applies to boxing I think and there really needs to be a couple of lists for different periods of time. John L. Sullivan must have been an amazing fighter for his era, but times changed and he lost. Marciano was an amazing fighter but was really small for a heavyweight today. Joe louis was also less than 200 pounds in his prime, but judged against his opponents, was amazing. The jury on Ali needs to consider the light opposition he had most of his career and the fact that he really lost early on to Jimmy Ellis, but got the win, and would not do well today against the monsters in the division, in my opinion–they are just so large and strong and hit so hard. An interesting series of lists by time period would be the most accurate solution/
Forget the list…Ali is #1
I agree with Donald when he states that the HW of this era were so much bigger than those of the past. I still don’t know why Lennox Lewis can not make this list. He was the best HW for about a decade. He beat Hollyfield, Tyson, and tried to fight the best fighters of his era. He had to take fighters to court to get them to fight him. He made Riddick Bowe throw his belt in the trash. If this man was an American (which I am) he would be on this list. And for those of you who are going to say Tyson and Holyfield were old, Lennox is there age. I honestly believe because of his size and skill level Lennox Lewis would be able to beat anyone on thist list. With the exception of Foreman, who would have a punchers chance being how big he was.
ESPN should fire this columnist for incompetency. My 2 year old daughter Chelsei could do a far better job than this with her eyes closed.
So Sayeth Lito!
It is true that heavyweights are much bigger now, but that is also partially the reason for the decline of the heavyweights. Many are either overweight or overbulked which slow down punchs and overall work rate. Many of the smaller hw around 200 lbs or so that are on the top 10 list could beat many of the heavyweights of today easily. Size can not be a judge of skill for the heavyweights. Otherwise, Valuev would be top of the division. If people think about it there actually was almost no large heavyweight that dominated for very long except maybe Lennox Lewis or Foreman. Since the days of Dempsey and Willard, giants have been falling to smaller heavyweights. The oversized heavyweights of today would only be an advantage for the smaller great heavyweights of yesterday.
Why does everybody love to kiss Tyson’s butt? I just took the poll and Tyson is leading. He’s a dirty fighter and Buster showed if you just fight your fight and not be fearless then you can beat him. I like this list. I think the only problem is Lennox not being on there. Who is Ezzard Charles? Other then that I think they hit it right on the spot.
ESPN always messes things up with boxing. The list is decent. Ali would be number 1 on everyone’s list. I am not mad at Joe Louis being number 1. I think Holyfield could have been there. And maybe moving Holmes up a 2-3 spots would have been nice.
I agree with Donald’s overall assessment but am scratching my head over the Ali comments. Ali competition was stellar…he faced 3 of the 10 on the ESPN list PLUS Liston, Patterson, Shavers, Norton, Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, etc. In the Jimmy Ellis fight, he totally dominated Ellis before it was mercifully stopped.
As usual, Holmes gets no respect. The guy defends his title 20 times against the best his division had to offer and he’s three behind EZZARD CHARLES????
Ali was no midget, either. Giving away 20 or 30 pounds to today’s heavyweights wouldn’t affect him that much. And it’s impossible to make size/weight comparisons between eras when making a list like this. Sure, today’s NFL players are much bigger than their counterparts in the 1950’s, but does that necessarily mean that Bronco Nagurski and Sammy Baugh sucked?
Tyson in 1986-89 would’ve wrecked anybody in the history of boxing.
Hmm Larry Holmes AFTER Joe Frazier, Marciano…GEORGE FOREMAN?
No.
Tie Marciano and Holmes at number 4, thank you!
And please, Muhammad Ali can be switched with Joe Louis, Ali was and remains THE GREATEST.
Sonny Liston was the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth – inside or outside the ring.
Sonny Liston’s fists were a massive 14 inches around (or 15 inches, depending on whom you ask), and Sonny’s wing span was a ridiculous 84 inches – the greatest wingspan (reach) of any heavyweight champion in boxing history, with the exception of Primo Carnera.
Sonny Liston destroyed all of the top-ranked heavyweights of his day (except for the ones who refused to fight him), including Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.
(Muhammad Ali’s handlers, most notably Angeo Dundee, continually ducked Folley, Machen, and, most especially, the fearsome Cleveland Williams, while Ali was on the way up. During their repeated verbal sparring sessions, which occurred over a period of many months, prior to their first fight, Sonny Liston often told Ali to “go fight Cleveland Williams, and then get back to me.” Ali’s handlers were not stupid – they knew Williams would demolish Ali, whom Liston knocked out twice in two of the most vicious brawls in heavyweight boxing history.)
Henry Cooper, the former British Heavyweight Champion, flat-out refused to fight Sonny Liston – under any circumstances. Cooper knocked Ali down in their first fight with a thunderous left hook (Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn’t saved him), and Cooper had been quoted as saying, on more than one occasion, “If Mr. Liston approached me on the street, I would walk the other way.”
Ingemar Johanssen, who was the reigning heavyweight champion at the time when Liston was busy cleaning out the division in the early 1960’s, constantly ducked Sonny Liston…Liston called him out on several occasions in front of the national media, but the silence from Johanssen was deafening. Johanssen had won the title by knocking out the former champion, Floyd Patterson.
During a 1987 interview, Floyd Patterson said he was convinced Liston threw both fights to Ali. According to Patterson, Ali’s cut man for the first fight had contacted all of his friends and relatives before the fight and told them that it was fixed, and that they should bet everything they had on Ali (this was also mentioned in a casino sports betting paper in 1991, as well).
Liston’s handlers and cornermen got wind of the scheme and put their money down as well, and everybody cleaned up – due to the 7-1 odds against Ali at the time of the first fight. In the second fight, Liston was STILL the favorite, the odds were 7-5 in Liston’s favor – and the wise guys cleaned up yet again.
Six months after supposedly knocking out Liston with a six-inch right hand, Ali could not finish off a badly injured Patterson (who foolishly went into the fight with a very bad back).
Sonny Liston absolutely mauled Floyd Patterson, knocking him out in the first round – TWICE.
Sonny Liston did time in prisons and prison camps. He beat the hell out of both inmates and guards, while incarcerated. Liston was constantly harassed by the Feds (J. Edgar Hoover had Liston on his “suspicious persons” list), the police and the Mob. He was followed by policemen everywhere he went. Liston once got into a brawl with six policeman who proceeded to beat Liston over the head with billy clubs – yet Liston survived the clubbing, and took all six of the policemen OUT. And yet…Ali’s ridiculous “phantom punch” knocked out Liston? Please…as P.T. Barnum once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
Both fights with Ali were fixed, and this is a fact, not speculation – and people who were close to both Liston and Ali have admitted as much over the years. Liston’s bodyguard at the time of the first Ali fight, asked Sonny if he should bet more money than he already had on Liston to win. Sonny told him that boxing was funny and you never knew who would actually come out on top in a heavyweight championship fight. After Liston failed to come out of his corner for the 7th round during the first Ali fight, Liston’s bodyguard knew what was up. He asked Liston later, why he hadn’t bothered to inform him that the fight had been fixed. to which Liston said, “With your big mouth, we would have both ended up in the river wearing concrete shoes…I just did what I was told.”
Watch Sonny Liston’s fights. Pay close attention to all the fights you can lay your hands on before the Ali (Clay) fights. Liston routinely knocked fighters’ senseless with his JAB (he also knocked more than a few heavyweights’ TEETH out with that same left jab). And his right hand was absolutely fearsome. Sonny could knock you out with either hand.
But, mysteriously, when he fought Ali the first time, he threw a total of maybe FIVE right hands during the entire fight. And most of those right hands were fly-swatter punches. If you watch all of his other fights leading up to the first Ali fight, you will notice that he set boxers up with his left, and when he went for the kill, he used lefts and rights in combination, especially a powerful straight right, or right hook to the head. (Or a right uppercut, he had a ferocious right uppercut.) He threw a good number of right hands in every single fight he ever fought – except for the Ali fights.
The eyes don’t lie. Watch the fights.
There exists reams and reams of evidence that overwhelmingly proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Sonny Liston threw both fights with Ali. (Read “The Devil and Sonny Liston,” by author Nick Tosches, for starters.)
And consider this -
Ever watch Ali’s fight with Doug Jones? This fight took place about 11 months before Ali’s first fight with Liston. Doug Jones was a journeyman light heavyweight (14.5 pounds lighter than Ali during the time of their fight at Madison Square Garden on March 13, 1963)…Ali’s handlers wouldn’t let Muhammad fight Cleveland Williams or Zora Folley or Eddie Machen, or ANY of the top contenders of the day, so Ali agreed to fight Doug Jones, as one of his two tune-ups for the first fixed fight with Liston.
Jones was the agressor duing the entire fight with Ali, and he came forward incessantly with great success – despite the great disparity in their weights (and their alleged boxing prowess). Ali won a unanimous decision in this fight, and many observers thought that THIS fight was fixed, and that Jones had clearly won, despite Ali’s strong showing in the last two rounds of this 10-round fight. You can watch this fight on DVD, or online…ESPN sometimes shows it on their “ESPN Classics” channel. Listen to the boos and watch the reaction of the Madison Square Garden crowd after you watch it…I watched this fight and I thought that it was, in the very least, a draw…Jones won at least five of the first seven rounds, and if I had to pick a winner on the night in question, it would have been Jones…Doug Jones stunned Ali in the first round with a good shot to the head.
Watch the fight. Then tell me that Ali is “The Greatest”…
Henry Cooper knocked Ali down (and almost out) with one punch. Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down with one punch. Joe Frazier knocked Ali down with one punch. Sonny Banks knocked Ali down with one punch.
Nobody ever knocked Sonny Liston down with one punch – except Muhammad Ali…
Contary to popular opinion, Muhammad Ali was one of the most overrated fighters in history.
And he got the title handed to him via a total setup.
Think about this – if the Liston/Ali fights were fixed (which they were), how many other Ali fights were fixed? Tell me that a boxer who gets knocked down by Henry Cooper is one of the greatest fighters in history? Tell me that a boxer who loses a fight to Doug Jones (a journeyman light heavyweight), is one of the greatest fighters in history? How many more of Ali’s fights were fixed. Watch the movie “Raging Bull” and ponder this important question…
Boxing’s murky past is checkered with countless fixed fights, various and sundry Mob goings-on, and sordid, shady dealings behind closed doors. It’s a fact of life, and anybody on the inside will tell you this. The same holds true for ALL professional sports, but that is not the subject of this post.
Sonny Liston was the most fearsome (and accomplished) heavyweight champion in history. And in my humble but informed opinion, he would have knocked out Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson and yes, even Rocky Marciano. (During a made-for-TV boxing special back in the mid-1980’s, an in-his-prime, Heavyweight Champion Mike Tyson admitted that he would have been afraid of fighting only one man in heavyweight boxing history – Sonny Liston.)
Nobody could stand up to Sonny Liston – unless the outcome had already been predetermined.
(***Interesting sidenote – For all of you “conspiracy theorists” out there – and, by the way, there ARE no conspiracies, Watergate never happened, wink-wink – Zora Folley, whom Muhammad Ali continually ducked until Folley was well past his prime at age 35, died under very mysterious circumstances. He allegedly got into a playful wrestling match near a motel pool in Chandler, Arizona, with a close friend. Supposedly, this “friend” eventually threw Folley into the pool, which resulted in Folley hitting his head on the side of the pool and drowning – unbeknownst to anybody in attendance who actually witnessed the event. The autopsy revealed a deep hole in the top of Folley’s head, and two blunt-force trauma injuries on the side of his head…yet Chandler AZ “officials” ruled Folley’s death to be “accidental”. This is especially interesting in light of the way that Sonny Liston allegedly died…Liston supposedly died at a motel, just like Zora Folley. And much has been made over the years of Liston’s alleged (and absolutely irrefutable) Mob connections…Sonny Liston won the last fight of his career, in June of 1970 against Chuck Wepner…and many people have alleged over the years that Liston was supposed to take a dive in the Wepner fight, but he refused…six months after the Wepner fight, Liston turns up dead – the result of an alleged “heroin overdose,” which is a circumstance that seems very unlikely in to the extreme, given the fact that it was common knowledge among anyone who ever knew him, that Sonny Liston, the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth, was deathly afraid of only one thing – needles…)
The time period has a huge part in boxing more than possibly any other sport. I understand baseball has it’s era’s with the last being the performance enhancing era. That’s why I think evander needs to be on this list. He worked his way up and unified the crusier weight titles. Then won the heavy weight title already unified but he won it at a time when heavy weights were at the best. Riddick bowe, Micheal Moorer, Mercer, cooper, lewis, tyson, an old holmes, old foreman, of course my favorite holyfield dokes. Tyson was champion during the paper champion era. Unfortunately for holmes the same could be said for him to. Also klitschko. Lennox Lewis never knocked him down and true boxing fan should have been able to tell that the first fight really was a draw and many believe that holyfield may have won the second fight. He was even a heavy weight until his 16 fight. The same goes for what roy Jones did junior middle weight to the unthinkalbe heavy weight. I suggest buying holyfields carreer and watch from start to finish. 4 time heavy weight champ never been done before.
Well my list would look a heck of a lot different. I look at Ali, Louis and Jack Johnson in almost the same breath. Who possibly beats Ali in his prime (the Cleveland Williams/Zora Foley Ali)? Johnson was way ahead of his time. Certainly the 1906 to 1910 version of Johnson would have been a difficult night for anyone in history. Can you see a 188lb man with a 68″ reach beating Foreman, Liston, Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes. Tunney, Marciano and Charles do not make my list. Marciano had few tough opponents through no fault of his own. Great cruiserweights….yes. Great Lightheavyweights…..yes. Great heavyweights…..I doubt it. I’m not sure Dempsey stands up to the contemporary standard the way say Jack Johnson does though he must have been a terrible burden for any opponent in his angry pre title days.
My next grouping would include Foreman, Liston and Holmes. Size, strength and unequalled jabs make this trio tough to beat. Homes makes my all time underestimated list and is a prime example as to why Marciano is simply out of his league with this group.
My final four includes Lennox Lewis, the enigmatic Mr. Tyson, Roided up Evander Holyfield and Smokin’ Joe Frasier.
Holyfield makes my list with great reservation. It is difficult to fully judge Tyson though I do not see him getting past Foreman, Ali, Johnson or Louis in a prime versus prime match up. Foreman is too hard a hitter for most anyone, Louis is just too technically sharp, Ali is just oo much of everything and Johnson, a great defender had a dynamite uppercut and more that would have undone Tyson. Still, it is hard to ignore such a dynamic puncher and unique physical specimen. Lewis is the prototypical modern pugilist. Too tall and heavy for most. Frasier is simply Smokin’ and is a one time conqueror of Ali which scores highly in my book.
Mike Tyson is overrated. He beat a bunch of has beens and never beens to become the top heavyweight in the 1980s, an era with a worse collection of contenders than today. Furthermore, Tyson was embarrassed in every big fight (Holyfield, Lewis)and lest we forget, Tyson only defended the linear title twice.
I DONT THINK ALI COULD STAY IN THE RING WITH THE CURRENT CHAMPION NOR COULD ANY OF THE GUYS THAT BEAT ALI. HE IS TO QUICK AND POWERFUL. MAYBE HE IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME, WE THINK HE IS. HE IS 6 FT 5 AND BUILT.
Reddick Bowe should be in the top 10. He could hold his own with anyone of them if not win. He was 6′5″ and 250lbs,fast and a good boxer. He only lost 1 fight and that was to Holyfield whom he beat twice.
How can anyone consider Mike Tyson a Top-10 All-Time heavyweight?! Please tell me one good fighter Tyson ever beat … wait, I’ll give you two … an over-the-hill, way past his prime Larry Holmes, and light-heavyweight Michael Spinks. That’s it. In my opinion, Mike Tyson is probably the most over-rated fighter ever. He knocked out a bunch of nobodies … not his fault, really, he can’t help who’s around when he fights — but a “great”?! That’a joke.
1 : ali. a prime ali was so fast to fast for most people. and he had a really great chin as he proved in his later carreer. and was a smart boxer.
2 : joe louis no question about this guy.
3 : larry holmes. this guy is so under estimated. larry holmes was a great great fighter.
4 : george foreman. the best of the sluggers. not many people know this but tyson refused to fight him. he was afraid of him. and like somebody else said if the foreman of the 70ties had the mental capacity of the 90ties he would have been even higher on this list.
5 : sonny liston. also a guy who doesn’t get the credit he deserves. first off all they ducked him for a few years. he should have had a tittle shot by the end of the 50ties. this was truly a great fighter only weak point was his mentallity.
6 : joe frazier. what liston and tyson lacked in mentallity this guy had tons of it. smokin joe would always keep on coming.
7 : jack dempsey. same as frazier. great fighter and great heart.
most overated fighters : tyson and marciano. rocky had a good heart but never boxed truly greats. a over the hill louis and an old archie moore and so on. tyson the same as rocky and tyson had no heart. tyson never won a fight against an opponent who wasn’t afraid of him and whom he couldn’t knock out in the early rounds.
jack johnson ? i can’t judge him didn’t see enough of him to make a fair judgement over this guy.
1.Muhammad Ali
2.joe louis
3.larry holmes
4.jack johnson
5.joe frazier
6.george foreman
7.sonny liston
8.evander holyfield
9.jack dempsey
10.rocky marciano
i gotta agree with kees on tyson if things didnt go exactly the way he wanted he had no plan b an was very prone to frustration something ali would have definately used to his advantage.ali in his prime is unlike anyone ive ever seen before or since.ali would’ve out-thought an out boxed mike.same goes for marciano i see ali stopping him on cuts.marciano makes the list on heart alone jack dempsey fought tougher fights than marciano hence why he is higher placed evander the only4time champion heart skill an a great chin.george foreman maybe less skilled technically than liston but had more stamina an a better chin joe frazier very underrated in alis shadow jack johnson brilliant defensive fighter larry holmes one of the most underrated boxers ever joe louis not exactly the best opponents but still a very skilled craftsman ali is the greatest of all time for one simple reason; he will always find a way to win.thats it plain an simple that seems to be the one thing these “boxing experts” failed to recognise.wether it meant outpointing u,stopping u,boxing u,outjabbing u,wotever it took at that time the man would get it done he was winner an in his prime would hit u til ur dizzy or cut ur face apart while slipping an dodging punches with alarming ease Ali beats any other heavyweight in his prime truly the greatest of all time!an if the goverment didnt take away his legs with the layoff,if he had gone on from folley no one would be doubting it all
It is very difficult to establish who was the first heavyweight in the history: for me there are four giants at the same level: Cassius Clay, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano and Dempsey. I have a little preference for Joe Louis, but I appreciate the bull style of Marciano, his amazing record and his clever decision to leave when he was the best . After these four boxeurs I put George Foreman and Mike Tyson (he has signed an era)
Boxing captures our interest on an emotional level like no other sport. But we cannot let our emotions get the best of us. For example, although I love Joe Louis b/c he was great for the country, how can he be ranked #1 when his competition is summarized as “the bum of the month club.”
Similarly, Ali was a great boxer, but I can’t help think that his impact outside of the ring continues to effect his legacy as an athlete. So, here goes;
1] Larry Holmes — I think he moved as quickly and smoothly as Ali. Holmes also had more pop in either hand and always came prepared to fight. I believe Holmes could have beat Foreman without the rope-a-dope.
2] Ali — for all of the obvious reasons.
3] Frazier — He was made to order for the Foreman grill; but he was also the only one to beat Ali when the latter was close to his prime.
4] Foreman- I love George but lets not forget the loss to Jimmy Young and his defensive “instincts” versus Ron Lyle.
5] Joe Louis
6] Jack Johnson
7] Jack Dempsey
8] Gene Tunney
9] Marciano
10] Tyson; Jeffries;
Say what you want and I’m sure I’ll be crucified for these comments, but Ali is the most overrated boxer of all time. He got away with more illegal moves than anyone. How many times can you pull someone’s head down without being penalized? This was his trademark move and he was NEVER called out on it. Watch his fights with Frazier. You’ll lose count of how many times he did this.
In my opinion, if you matched Tyson in his prime against Ali in his prime, Ali would be knocked out within 6 rounds (probably less).
We all think of Tyson for the freak he is today, but we forget how unbelievable he was when he was young. No one has ever had his combination of skills at such an elite level. I’d put him #1 on this list.
I’d put Ali in the top 20 somewhere, but he always will remain #1 on my most overrated list.
And to further add some fuel – Larry Holmes is #2 on my most overrated list ….
Cheers – let the firestorm begin …
LENNOX LEWIS IS THE MOST UNDER RATED HEAVYWEIGHT THAT EVER LIVED,SURE TYSON WAS FAR MORE POPULAR ( ALTHOUGH LENNOX WAS VERY WELL KNOW) BUT LENNOX WAS AN OVER ALL BETTER FIGHTER, HAD BETTER TITLE RAINS, AND WAS A MORE CONSISTANT AND DOMINATING FORCE THROUGH OUT HIS CAREER AND HE NEVER DUCKED ANYONE!! CANT SAY THE SAME FOR EARLY 90S TYSON W REGARDS TO HOLYFIELD AND BIG GEORGE FOREMAN, LENNOX A HELL OF A FIGHTER BUT NOT AMERICAN SO IDNT GET HIS DUE JUST LIKE KLICHKO TODAY
there aint no way ezzard charels is in the top ten or even top 20.
Louis and Ali are okay.
Dempsey is not top 10, due to his refusal to fight black fighters.
Tunney also is excluded for same reason.
Jack Johnson should be no lower than 3rd.
Marciano should be no lower than 4th.
Ezzard Charles is a good call at 7th.
Foreman should be no higher than 10th (he only had 3 total title defenses in both his reigns)
Holmes is way too low. He should be no lower than 5th.
real list-
1. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
3. Ali
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Holyfield
7. Charles
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Frazier
10. Foreman (barely)
1. rocky marciano
2. joe louis
3. jack dempsey
4.muhammed ali
5. jack johnson
6. gene tunney
7. mike tyson
8. joe fraizer
9. max schmeling
10.ezzard charles
i think that should b the top 10, rocky marciano doesnt get enough credit completely underrated and ali is overrated. marciano could have beat him if they fought he was the greatest ever
The fact that Tyson isn’t on this list actually makes him the most UNDERRATED fighter not on this list.
Let’s look at the facts. In terms of pure skill and the complete package in his prime, Tyson #1. He put fighters that never hit the floor hard on the floor in Devastating fashion. That’s not called fighting tomato cans…that’s called “you’re so damn good, that you make your opponents want to quit the sport, and go sell 2nd hand furniture”
In his prime, if you weren’t afraid of Tyson and decided to fight him for 10 rounds, be prepared to lose teeth, crowns, fillings, and suffer severe shock and brain damage.
Greatest boxers should be classified by specific eras. Tyson ruled the world in his era.
As has been pointed out many, many times, it’s a bit silly to compare fighters across eras. Could Jack Dempsey have beaten Mike Tyson? The question is not really answerable.
If you insist on comparing fighters across eras, you have to go by their accomplishments, not their “skill” or the size of their fists or whether you think they actually lost a fight that the record says they won.
The one statistical measure that is consistent across era is “Record in lineal title fights.” By that measure, there are three guys who have an argument, and then everyone else is behind them: Joe Louis (27-2), Muhammad Ali (24-3), and Larry Holmes (21-4.) No one else comes close.
I think it’s kind of cool that someone actually showed up to defend Liston’s (2-2 in lineal title fights) claim to being the greatest heavyweight of all time on this thread – you don’t usually see that. I don’t think he has much of a case, but he has about as good a case as Mike Tyson (5-4). The two mens’ resumes are actually somewhat similar.
The one really dumb thing on this thread is the “Doug Jones fight was fixed” business. This is why it’s so easy to start a rumor on the internet. I’ve been studying boxing my whole life and I have never heard anyone make that claim. It’s completely made up. There was a book called “The Greatest Sports Conspiracies” or something that made an offhand claim about the public thinking the fight was fixed, but the claim was unsourced and made no sense in the context it was offered.
The Doug Jones/Cassius Clay fight was a choppy, hard-to-score fight between a rising star and his journeyman opponent. The rising star got the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds and won a UD. Not to burst the bubble of Ali haters who want this one obscure fight to invalidate one of the great careers of all time but… this sort of thing has happened a few times.
Ali’s third fight with Norton is a much better example of a giant screw-job – Norton won that fight.
Ali was the most over rated fighter in history. The Liston FDights were, as hasn been pointed out, fixed. But Liston was not the greatest either. Marty Marshall, a light heavy, beat him. Tunney would have done the same. tunney is the most under rated fighter. Foreman exposed Fraiser, as much as I admire him, as being vulnerable against devastating punchers. Many other fighters would have knocked out Smokin Joe, namely, Dempsey, Marciano, Lyle, Max Baer, Carmen Vingo, Jeff Merritt, Buddy Baer, Louis, etc. Bonavena had him down twice. I see the top ten this way:
1. Tunney
2. Marciano
3. Dempsey
4. Louis
5. Johnson
6. Liston
7. Kliztchko
8. ali
9. Holmes
10.Jeffries
1. Tunney
2. Marciano
3. Dempsey
4. Louis
5. Johnson
6. Liston
7. Klitzchko
8. Ali
9. Jefferies
10. Holmes
I think this is a reasonable list.I would suggest that there be only two changes.
One of Ali’s most underestimated traits was his ability to figure out a way to beat each man he met in the ring. Look at what Foreman did to Norton and Frasier, two of the best of their time. Ali however came up with a plan that prevailed. He had a resolve that few other fighters had (excluding Joe frasier), it was these traits coupled with his legendary handspeed and footwork that made him the most formidable opponent in the ring. I think the majority of informed boxing fans would place Ali at number one.I am bemused at one comment that states some of Ali’s opposition as “light”. This was an era famed for the quality of it’s boxers. I am also surprised at a comment regarding Cleveland Williams, the Texan K.O artist. Ali fought and knocked out Williams. There is a photograph from that fight that shows Williams lying prone on the canvas, similar to the one taken just after Liston went down in their second fight.
Secondly I would replace Charles with Tyson. Whatever about Tyson the man, few can argue with the statistics of his early boxing years. His headmovement made him extremely difficult to hit and his punching power maybe second only to Foreman. He will not be remembered for the calibre of the men he fought or quality career longevity, but on his day he is capable of beating most of the entrants in anyone’s top ten.
Finally I think Lewis’s name even being mentioned is simply laughable.
Lists similar to this are very difficult to judge, but everyone has their 2 cents, and that is great. Especially for fanatics on boxing like me.
Styles make fights so it is difficult to find the right criteria to rank people. for example, if Ali fought Norton 10 times, IMHO Ali would win 6 times. If foreman fought Norton 10 times Foreman would win all 10, probably within 3 rounds each time. Does that mean Foreman destroys Ali, obviously not…..
So I will use a system of ranking by who would win the most fights if each of the top heavys fought each other, similar to the current Big 6 tournament in the super Middleweights. Allora, andiamo:
1. Joe Louis
2. Gene Tunney
3. Muhammad Ali
4, Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Jack Johnson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Lennox Lewis
some of the comments on this page are mad but the worse on has to be the comment left by oisin fallon. It seems to me you know nothing about boxing and just go with popular opinion. Ali was a good boxer at best in an era of slow sluggish heavyweights and still struggled with bums like norton and frazier. Also how could you say the mention of lewis is laughable. Look at the facts. Berbick beat Ali, Tyson beat Berbick, and lewis destroyed Tyson. I bet you only watched 3 or 4 boxing fights and now consider yourself a fan
Some of the comments made on this topic and mad but the worse one was by Oisin Fallon. It seems to me you fust go by popular opinion. Ali was a good heavyweight in an era of slow sluggish heavyweights with no skill or class and he still struggled with bums like Norton and Frazier. Also could you say the mention of Lewis is laughable. Just look at the facts. Berbick beat Ali, Tyson beat Brebick and lewis destroyed Tyson. I bet you watched 3 of 4 fights and now consider yourself a fan but its quite obvious you know nothing about the sport.
Apologies if my comment has caused you to throw a hissy fit Joe.
However your comments speak for themselves. It is quite obvious to any informed fan of the sport that you are in fact the one who knows little about the art of boxing. Your support for your country man is to be commended though, however missguided.