1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes
A good list, no question. All ten are among the best heavyweights of all-time. Such lists, however, are designed to make the reader ask "Where is fill-in-the-blank"? This list is no exception. So who do you think is the most glaring omission from ESPN's list of the top ten heavyweights of all-time?
We offer nine alternatives to those selected by ESPN ... but even that may not be sufficient if you were hoping to show your support for Wladimir Klitschko, Floyd Patterson, Riddick Bowe, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Ken Norton, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Corbett or some other heavyweight you feel has been unjustifiably overlooked.
Vote in our poll and let us know what you think ...
Comments
Lists like this are always difficult and very subjective, much like baseball lists–how does one look at Ty Cobb with a lifetime .367 batting average but who played in the deadball era. The same applies to boxing I think and there really needs to be a couple of lists for different periods of time. John L. Sullivan must have been an amazing fighter for his era, but times changed and he lost. Marciano was an amazing fighter but was really small for a heavyweight today. Joe louis was also less than 200 pounds in his prime, but judged against his opponents, was amazing. The jury on Ali needs to consider the light opposition he had most of his career and the fact that he really lost early on to Jimmy Ellis, but got the win, and would not do well today against the monsters in the division, in my opinion–they are just so large and strong and hit so hard. An interesting series of lists by time period would be the most accurate solution/
Forget the list…Ali is #1
I agree with Donald when he states that the HW of this era were so much bigger than those of the past. I still don’t know why Lennox Lewis can not make this list. He was the best HW for about a decade. He beat Hollyfield, Tyson, and tried to fight the best fighters of his era. He had to take fighters to court to get them to fight him. He made Riddick Bowe throw his belt in the trash. If this man was an American (which I am) he would be on this list. And for those of you who are going to say Tyson and Holyfield were old, Lennox is there age. I honestly believe because of his size and skill level Lennox Lewis would be able to beat anyone on thist list. With the exception of Foreman, who would have a punchers chance being how big he was.
ESPN should fire this columnist for incompetency. My 2 year old daughter Chelsei could do a far better job than this with her eyes closed.
So Sayeth Lito!
It is true that heavyweights are much bigger now, but that is also partially the reason for the decline of the heavyweights. Many are either overweight or overbulked which slow down punchs and overall work rate. Many of the smaller hw around 200 lbs or so that are on the top 10 list could beat many of the heavyweights of today easily. Size can not be a judge of skill for the heavyweights. Otherwise, Valuev would be top of the division. If people think about it there actually was almost no large heavyweight that dominated for very long except maybe Lennox Lewis or Foreman. Since the days of Dempsey and Willard, giants have been falling to smaller heavyweights. The oversized heavyweights of today would only be an advantage for the smaller great heavyweights of yesterday.
Why does everybody love to kiss Tyson’s butt? I just took the poll and Tyson is leading. He’s a dirty fighter and Buster showed if you just fight your fight and not be fearless then you can beat him. I like this list. I think the only problem is Lennox not being on there. Who is Ezzard Charles? Other then that I think they hit it right on the spot.
ESPN always messes things up with boxing. The list is decent. Ali would be number 1 on everyone’s list. I am not mad at Joe Louis being number 1. I think Holyfield could have been there. And maybe moving Holmes up a 2-3 spots would have been nice.
I agree with Donald’s overall assessment but am scratching my head over the Ali comments. Ali competition was stellar…he faced 3 of the 10 on the ESPN list PLUS Liston, Patterson, Shavers, Norton, Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, etc. In the Jimmy Ellis fight, he totally dominated Ellis before it was mercifully stopped.
As usual, Holmes gets no respect. The guy defends his title 20 times against the best his division had to offer and he’s three behind EZZARD CHARLES????
Ali was no midget, either. Giving away 20 or 30 pounds to today’s heavyweights wouldn’t affect him that much. And it’s impossible to make size/weight comparisons between eras when making a list like this. Sure, today’s NFL players are much bigger than their counterparts in the 1950’s, but does that necessarily mean that Bronco Nagurski and Sammy Baugh sucked?
Tyson in 1986-89 would’ve wrecked anybody in the history of boxing.
Hmm Larry Holmes AFTER Joe Frazier, Marciano…GEORGE FOREMAN?
No.
Tie Marciano and Holmes at number 4, thank you!
And please, Muhammad Ali can be switched with Joe Louis, Ali was and remains THE GREATEST.
Sonny Liston was the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth – inside or outside the ring.
Sonny Liston’s fists were a massive 14 inches around (or 15 inches, depending on whom you ask), and Sonny’s wing span was a ridiculous 84 inches – the greatest wingspan (reach) of any heavyweight champion in boxing history, with the exception of Primo Carnera.
Sonny Liston destroyed all of the top-ranked heavyweights of his day (except for the ones who refused to fight him), including Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.
(Muhammad Ali’s handlers, most notably Angeo Dundee, continually ducked Folley, Machen, and, most especially, the fearsome Cleveland Williams, while Ali was on the way up. During their repeated verbal sparring sessions, which occurred over a period of many months, prior to their first fight, Sonny Liston often told Ali to “go fight Cleveland Williams, and then get back to me.” Ali’s handlers were not stupid – they knew Williams would demolish Ali, whom Liston knocked out twice in two of the most vicious brawls in heavyweight boxing history.)
Henry Cooper, the former British Heavyweight Champion, flat-out refused to fight Sonny Liston – under any circumstances. Cooper knocked Ali down in their first fight with a thunderous left hook (Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn’t saved him), and Cooper had been quoted as saying, on more than one occasion, “If Mr. Liston approached me on the street, I would walk the other way.”
Ingemar Johanssen, who was the reigning heavyweight champion at the time when Liston was busy cleaning out the division in the early 1960’s, constantly ducked Sonny Liston…Liston called him out on several occasions in front of the national media, but the silence from Johanssen was deafening. Johanssen had won the title by knocking out the former champion, Floyd Patterson.
During a 1987 interview, Floyd Patterson said he was convinced Liston threw both fights to Ali. According to Patterson, Ali’s cut man for the first fight had contacted all of his friends and relatives before the fight and told them that it was fixed, and that they should bet everything they had on Ali (this was also mentioned in a casino sports betting paper in 1991, as well).
Liston’s handlers and cornermen got wind of the scheme and put their money down as well, and everybody cleaned up – due to the 7-1 odds against Ali at the time of the first fight. In the second fight, Liston was STILL the favorite, the odds were 7-5 in Liston’s favor – and the wise guys cleaned up yet again.
Six months after supposedly knocking out Liston with a six-inch right hand, Ali could not finish off a badly injured Patterson (who foolishly went into the fight with a very bad back).
Sonny Liston absolutely mauled Floyd Patterson, knocking him out in the first round – TWICE.
Sonny Liston did time in prisons and prison camps. He beat the hell out of both inmates and guards, while incarcerated. Liston was constantly harassed by the Feds (J. Edgar Hoover had Liston on his “suspicious persons” list), the police and the Mob. He was followed by policemen everywhere he went. Liston once got into a brawl with six policeman who proceeded to beat Liston over the head with billy clubs – yet Liston survived the clubbing, and took all six of the policemen OUT. And yet…Ali’s ridiculous “phantom punch” knocked out Liston? Please…as P.T. Barnum once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
Both fights with Ali were fixed, and this is a fact, not speculation – and people who were close to both Liston and Ali have admitted as much over the years. Liston’s bodyguard at the time of the first Ali fight, asked Sonny if he should bet more money than he already had on Liston to win. Sonny told him that boxing was funny and you never knew who would actually come out on top in a heavyweight championship fight. After Liston failed to come out of his corner for the 7th round during the first Ali fight, Liston’s bodyguard knew what was up. He asked Liston later, why he hadn’t bothered to inform him that the fight had been fixed. to which Liston said, “With your big mouth, we would have both ended up in the river wearing concrete shoes…I just did what I was told.”
Watch Sonny Liston’s fights. Pay close attention to all the fights you can lay your hands on before the Ali (Clay) fights. Liston routinely knocked fighters’ senseless with his JAB (he also knocked more than a few heavyweights’ TEETH out with that same left jab). And his right hand was absolutely fearsome. Sonny could knock you out with either hand.
But, mysteriously, when he fought Ali the first time, he threw a total of maybe FIVE right hands during the entire fight. And most of those right hands were fly-swatter punches. If you watch all of his other fights leading up to the first Ali fight, you will notice that he set boxers up with his left, and when he went for the kill, he used lefts and rights in combination, especially a powerful straight right, or right hook to the head. (Or a right uppercut, he had a ferocious right uppercut.) He threw a good number of right hands in every single fight he ever fought – except for the Ali fights.
The eyes don’t lie. Watch the fights.
There exists reams and reams of evidence that overwhelmingly proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Sonny Liston threw both fights with Ali. (Read “The Devil and Sonny Liston,” by author Nick Tosches, for starters.)
And consider this -
Ever watch Ali’s fight with Doug Jones? This fight took place about 11 months before Ali’s first fight with Liston. Doug Jones was a journeyman light heavyweight (14.5 pounds lighter than Ali during the time of their fight at Madison Square Garden on March 13, 1963)…Ali’s handlers wouldn’t let Muhammad fight Cleveland Williams or Zora Folley or Eddie Machen, or ANY of the top contenders of the day, so Ali agreed to fight Doug Jones, as one of his two tune-ups for the first fixed fight with Liston.
Jones was the agressor duing the entire fight with Ali, and he came forward incessantly with great success – despite the great disparity in their weights (and their alleged boxing prowess). Ali won a unanimous decision in this fight, and many observers thought that THIS fight was fixed, and that Jones had clearly won, despite Ali’s strong showing in the last two rounds of this 10-round fight. You can watch this fight on DVD, or online…ESPN sometimes shows it on their “ESPN Classics” channel. Listen to the boos and watch the reaction of the Madison Square Garden crowd after you watch it…I watched this fight and I thought that it was, in the very least, a draw…Jones won at least five of the first seven rounds, and if I had to pick a winner on the night in question, it would have been Jones…Doug Jones stunned Ali in the first round with a good shot to the head.
Watch the fight. Then tell me that Ali is “The Greatest”…
Henry Cooper knocked Ali down (and almost out) with one punch. Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down with one punch. Joe Frazier knocked Ali down with one punch. Sonny Banks knocked Ali down with one punch.
Nobody ever knocked Sonny Liston down with one punch – except Muhammad Ali…
Contary to popular opinion, Muhammad Ali was one of the most overrated fighters in history.
And he got the title handed to him via a total setup.
Think about this – if the Liston/Ali fights were fixed (which they were), how many other Ali fights were fixed? Tell me that a boxer who gets knocked down by Henry Cooper is one of the greatest fighters in history? Tell me that a boxer who loses a fight to Doug Jones (a journeyman light heavyweight), is one of the greatest fighters in history? How many more of Ali’s fights were fixed. Watch the movie “Raging Bull” and ponder this important question…
Boxing’s murky past is checkered with countless fixed fights, various and sundry Mob goings-on, and sordid, shady dealings behind closed doors. It’s a fact of life, and anybody on the inside will tell you this. The same holds true for ALL professional sports, but that is not the subject of this post.
Sonny Liston was the most fearsome (and accomplished) heavyweight champion in history. And in my humble but informed opinion, he would have knocked out Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson and yes, even Rocky Marciano. (During a made-for-TV boxing special back in the mid-1980’s, an in-his-prime, Heavyweight Champion Mike Tyson admitted that he would have been afraid of fighting only one man in heavyweight boxing history – Sonny Liston.)
Nobody could stand up to Sonny Liston – unless the outcome had already been predetermined.
(***Interesting sidenote – For all of you “conspiracy theorists” out there – and, by the way, there ARE no conspiracies, Watergate never happened, wink-wink – Zora Folley, whom Muhammad Ali continually ducked until Folley was well past his prime at age 35, died under very mysterious circumstances. He allegedly got into a playful wrestling match near a motel pool in Chandler, Arizona, with a close friend. Supposedly, this “friend” eventually threw Folley into the pool, which resulted in Folley hitting his head on the side of the pool and drowning – unbeknownst to anybody in attendance who actually witnessed the event. The autopsy revealed a deep hole in the top of Folley’s head, and two blunt-force trauma injuries on the side of his head…yet Chandler AZ “officials” ruled Folley’s death to be “accidental”. This is especially interesting in light of the way that Sonny Liston allegedly died…Liston supposedly died at a motel, just like Zora Folley. And much has been made over the years of Liston’s alleged (and absolutely irrefutable) Mob connections…Sonny Liston won the last fight of his career, in June of 1970 against Chuck Wepner…and many people have alleged over the years that Liston was supposed to take a dive in the Wepner fight, but he refused…six months after the Wepner fight, Liston turns up dead – the result of an alleged “heroin overdose,” which is a circumstance that seems very unlikely in to the extreme, given the fact that it was common knowledge among anyone who ever knew him, that Sonny Liston, the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth, was deathly afraid of only one thing – needles…)
The time period has a huge part in boxing more than possibly any other sport. I understand baseball has it’s era’s with the last being the performance enhancing era. That’s why I think evander needs to be on this list. He worked his way up and unified the crusier weight titles. Then won the heavy weight title already unified but he won it at a time when heavy weights were at the best. Riddick bowe, Micheal Moorer, Mercer, cooper, lewis, tyson, an old holmes, old foreman, of course my favorite holyfield dokes. Tyson was champion during the paper champion era. Unfortunately for holmes the same could be said for him to. Also klitschko. Lennox Lewis never knocked him down and true boxing fan should have been able to tell that the first fight really was a draw and many believe that holyfield may have won the second fight. He was even a heavy weight until his 16 fight. The same goes for what roy Jones did junior middle weight to the unthinkalbe heavy weight. I suggest buying holyfields carreer and watch from start to finish. 4 time heavy weight champ never been done before.
Well my list would look a heck of a lot different. I look at Ali, Louis and Jack Johnson in almost the same breath. Who possibly beats Ali in his prime (the Cleveland Williams/Zora Foley Ali)? Johnson was way ahead of his time. Certainly the 1906 to 1910 version of Johnson would have been a difficult night for anyone in history. Can you see a 188lb man with a 68″ reach beating Foreman, Liston, Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes. Tunney, Marciano and Charles do not make my list. Marciano had few tough opponents through no fault of his own. Great cruiserweights….yes. Great Lightheavyweights…..yes. Great heavyweights…..I doubt it. I’m not sure Dempsey stands up to the contemporary standard the way say Jack Johnson does though he must have been a terrible burden for any opponent in his angry pre title days.
My next grouping would include Foreman, Liston and Holmes. Size, strength and unequalled jabs make this trio tough to beat. Homes makes my all time underestimated list and is a prime example as to why Marciano is simply out of his league with this group.
My final four includes Lennox Lewis, the enigmatic Mr. Tyson, Roided up Evander Holyfield and Smokin’ Joe Frasier.
Holyfield makes my list with great reservation. It is difficult to fully judge Tyson though I do not see him getting past Foreman, Ali, Johnson or Louis in a prime versus prime match up. Foreman is too hard a hitter for most anyone, Louis is just too technically sharp, Ali is just oo much of everything and Johnson, a great defender had a dynamite uppercut and more that would have undone Tyson. Still, it is hard to ignore such a dynamic puncher and unique physical specimen. Lewis is the prototypical modern pugilist. Too tall and heavy for most. Frasier is simply Smokin’ and is a one time conqueror of Ali which scores highly in my book.
Mike Tyson is overrated. He beat a bunch of has beens and never beens to become the top heavyweight in the 1980s, an era with a worse collection of contenders than today. Furthermore, Tyson was embarrassed in every big fight (Holyfield, Lewis)and lest we forget, Tyson only defended the linear title twice.
I DONT THINK ALI COULD STAY IN THE RING WITH THE CURRENT CHAMPION NOR COULD ANY OF THE GUYS THAT BEAT ALI. HE IS TO QUICK AND POWERFUL. MAYBE HE IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME, WE THINK HE IS. HE IS 6 FT 5 AND BUILT.
Reddick Bowe should be in the top 10. He could hold his own with anyone of them if not win. He was 6′5″ and 250lbs,fast and a good boxer. He only lost 1 fight and that was to Holyfield whom he beat twice.
How can anyone consider Mike Tyson a Top-10 All-Time heavyweight?! Please tell me one good fighter Tyson ever beat … wait, I’ll give you two … an over-the-hill, way past his prime Larry Holmes, and light-heavyweight Michael Spinks. That’s it. In my opinion, Mike Tyson is probably the most over-rated fighter ever. He knocked out a bunch of nobodies … not his fault, really, he can’t help who’s around when he fights — but a “great”?! That’a joke.
1 : ali. a prime ali was so fast to fast for most people. and he had a really great chin as he proved in his later carreer. and was a smart boxer.
2 : joe louis no question about this guy.
3 : larry holmes. this guy is so under estimated. larry holmes was a great great fighter.
4 : george foreman. the best of the sluggers. not many people know this but tyson refused to fight him. he was afraid of him. and like somebody else said if the foreman of the 70ties had the mental capacity of the 90ties he would have been even higher on this list.
5 : sonny liston. also a guy who doesn’t get the credit he deserves. first off all they ducked him for a few years. he should have had a tittle shot by the end of the 50ties. this was truly a great fighter only weak point was his mentallity.
6 : joe frazier. what liston and tyson lacked in mentallity this guy had tons of it. smokin joe would always keep on coming.
7 : jack dempsey. same as frazier. great fighter and great heart.
most overated fighters : tyson and marciano. rocky had a good heart but never boxed truly greats. a over the hill louis and an old archie moore and so on. tyson the same as rocky and tyson had no heart. tyson never won a fight against an opponent who wasn’t afraid of him and whom he couldn’t knock out in the early rounds.
jack johnson ? i can’t judge him didn’t see enough of him to make a fair judgement over this guy.
1.Muhammad Ali
2.joe louis
3.larry holmes
4.jack johnson
5.joe frazier
6.george foreman
7.sonny liston
8.evander holyfield
9.jack dempsey
10.rocky marciano
i gotta agree with kees on tyson if things didnt go exactly the way he wanted he had no plan b an was very prone to frustration something ali would have definately used to his advantage.ali in his prime is unlike anyone ive ever seen before or since.ali would’ve out-thought an out boxed mike.same goes for marciano i see ali stopping him on cuts.marciano makes the list on heart alone jack dempsey fought tougher fights than marciano hence why he is higher placed evander the only4time champion heart skill an a great chin.george foreman maybe less skilled technically than liston but had more stamina an a better chin joe frazier very underrated in alis shadow jack johnson brilliant defensive fighter larry holmes one of the most underrated boxers ever joe louis not exactly the best opponents but still a very skilled craftsman ali is the greatest of all time for one simple reason; he will always find a way to win.thats it plain an simple that seems to be the one thing these “boxing experts” failed to recognise.wether it meant outpointing u,stopping u,boxing u,outjabbing u,wotever it took at that time the man would get it done he was winner an in his prime would hit u til ur dizzy or cut ur face apart while slipping an dodging punches with alarming ease Ali beats any other heavyweight in his prime truly the greatest of all time!an if the goverment didnt take away his legs with the layoff,if he had gone on from folley no one would be doubting it all
It is very difficult to establish who was the first heavyweight in the history: for me there are four giants at the same level: Cassius Clay, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano and Dempsey. I have a little preference for Joe Louis, but I appreciate the bull style of Marciano, his amazing record and his clever decision to leave when he was the best . After these four boxeurs I put George Foreman and Mike Tyson (he has signed an era)
Boxing captures our interest on an emotional level like no other sport. But we cannot let our emotions get the best of us. For example, although I love Joe Louis b/c he was great for the country, how can he be ranked #1 when his competition is summarized as “the bum of the month club.”
Similarly, Ali was a great boxer, but I can’t help think that his impact outside of the ring continues to effect his legacy as an athlete. So, here goes;
1] Larry Holmes — I think he moved as quickly and smoothly as Ali. Holmes also had more pop in either hand and always came prepared to fight. I believe Holmes could have beat Foreman without the rope-a-dope.
2] Ali — for all of the obvious reasons.
3] Frazier — He was made to order for the Foreman grill; but he was also the only one to beat Ali when the latter was close to his prime.
4] Foreman- I love George but lets not forget the loss to Jimmy Young and his defensive “instincts” versus Ron Lyle.
5] Joe Louis
6] Jack Johnson
7] Jack Dempsey
8] Gene Tunney
9] Marciano
10] Tyson; Jeffries;
Say what you want and I’m sure I’ll be crucified for these comments, but Ali is the most overrated boxer of all time. He got away with more illegal moves than anyone. How many times can you pull someone’s head down without being penalized? This was his trademark move and he was NEVER called out on it. Watch his fights with Frazier. You’ll lose count of how many times he did this.
In my opinion, if you matched Tyson in his prime against Ali in his prime, Ali would be knocked out within 6 rounds (probably less).
We all think of Tyson for the freak he is today, but we forget how unbelievable he was when he was young. No one has ever had his combination of skills at such an elite level. I’d put him #1 on this list.
I’d put Ali in the top 20 somewhere, but he always will remain #1 on my most overrated list.
And to further add some fuel – Larry Holmes is #2 on my most overrated list ….
Cheers – let the firestorm begin …
LENNOX LEWIS IS THE MOST UNDER RATED HEAVYWEIGHT THAT EVER LIVED,SURE TYSON WAS FAR MORE POPULAR ( ALTHOUGH LENNOX WAS VERY WELL KNOW) BUT LENNOX WAS AN OVER ALL BETTER FIGHTER, HAD BETTER TITLE RAINS, AND WAS A MORE CONSISTANT AND DOMINATING FORCE THROUGH OUT HIS CAREER AND HE NEVER DUCKED ANYONE!! CANT SAY THE SAME FOR EARLY 90S TYSON W REGARDS TO HOLYFIELD AND BIG GEORGE FOREMAN, LENNOX A HELL OF A FIGHTER BUT NOT AMERICAN SO IDNT GET HIS DUE JUST LIKE KLICHKO TODAY
there aint no way ezzard charels is in the top ten or even top 20.
Louis and Ali are okay.
Dempsey is not top 10, due to his refusal to fight black fighters.
Tunney also is excluded for same reason.
Jack Johnson should be no lower than 3rd.
Marciano should be no lower than 4th.
Ezzard Charles is a good call at 7th.
Foreman should be no higher than 10th (he only had 3 total title defenses in both his reigns)
Holmes is way too low. He should be no lower than 5th.
real list-
1. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
3. Ali
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Holyfield
7. Charles
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Frazier
10. Foreman (barely)
1. rocky marciano
2. joe louis
3. jack dempsey
4.muhammed ali
5. jack johnson
6. gene tunney
7. mike tyson
8. joe fraizer
9. max schmeling
10.ezzard charles
i think that should b the top 10, rocky marciano doesnt get enough credit completely underrated and ali is overrated. marciano could have beat him if they fought he was the greatest ever
The fact that Tyson isn’t on this list actually makes him the most UNDERRATED fighter not on this list.
Let’s look at the facts. In terms of pure skill and the complete package in his prime, Tyson #1. He put fighters that never hit the floor hard on the floor in Devastating fashion. That’s not called fighting tomato cans…that’s called “you’re so damn good, that you make your opponents want to quit the sport, and go sell 2nd hand furniture”
In his prime, if you weren’t afraid of Tyson and decided to fight him for 10 rounds, be prepared to lose teeth, crowns, fillings, and suffer severe shock and brain damage.
Greatest boxers should be classified by specific eras. Tyson ruled the world in his era.
As has been pointed out many, many times, it’s a bit silly to compare fighters across eras. Could Jack Dempsey have beaten Mike Tyson? The question is not really answerable.
If you insist on comparing fighters across eras, you have to go by their accomplishments, not their “skill” or the size of their fists or whether you think they actually lost a fight that the record says they won.
The one statistical measure that is consistent across era is “Record in lineal title fights.” By that measure, there are three guys who have an argument, and then everyone else is behind them: Joe Louis (27-2), Muhammad Ali (24-3), and Larry Holmes (21-4.) No one else comes close.
I think it’s kind of cool that someone actually showed up to defend Liston’s (2-2 in lineal title fights) claim to being the greatest heavyweight of all time on this thread – you don’t usually see that. I don’t think he has much of a case, but he has about as good a case as Mike Tyson (5-4). The two mens’ resumes are actually somewhat similar.
The one really dumb thing on this thread is the “Doug Jones fight was fixed” business. This is why it’s so easy to start a rumor on the internet. I’ve been studying boxing my whole life and I have never heard anyone make that claim. It’s completely made up. There was a book called “The Greatest Sports Conspiracies” or something that made an offhand claim about the public thinking the fight was fixed, but the claim was unsourced and made no sense in the context it was offered.
The Doug Jones/Cassius Clay fight was a choppy, hard-to-score fight between a rising star and his journeyman opponent. The rising star got the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds and won a UD. Not to burst the bubble of Ali haters who want this one obscure fight to invalidate one of the great careers of all time but… this sort of thing has happened a few times.
Ali’s third fight with Norton is a much better example of a giant screw-job – Norton won that fight.
Ali was the most over rated fighter in history. The Liston FDights were, as hasn been pointed out, fixed. But Liston was not the greatest either. Marty Marshall, a light heavy, beat him. Tunney would have done the same. tunney is the most under rated fighter. Foreman exposed Fraiser, as much as I admire him, as being vulnerable against devastating punchers. Many other fighters would have knocked out Smokin Joe, namely, Dempsey, Marciano, Lyle, Max Baer, Carmen Vingo, Jeff Merritt, Buddy Baer, Louis, etc. Bonavena had him down twice. I see the top ten this way:
1. Tunney
2. Marciano
3. Dempsey
4. Louis
5. Johnson
6. Liston
7. Kliztchko
8. ali
9. Holmes
10.Jeffries
1. Tunney
2. Marciano
3. Dempsey
4. Louis
5. Johnson
6. Liston
7. Klitzchko
8. Ali
9. Jefferies
10. Holmes
I think this is a reasonable list.I would suggest that there be only two changes.
One of Ali’s most underestimated traits was his ability to figure out a way to beat each man he met in the ring. Look at what Foreman did to Norton and Frasier, two of the best of their time. Ali however came up with a plan that prevailed. He had a resolve that few other fighters had (excluding Joe frasier), it was these traits coupled with his legendary handspeed and footwork that made him the most formidable opponent in the ring. I think the majority of informed boxing fans would place Ali at number one.I am bemused at one comment that states some of Ali’s opposition as “light”. This was an era famed for the quality of it’s boxers. I am also surprised at a comment regarding Cleveland Williams, the Texan K.O artist. Ali fought and knocked out Williams. There is a photograph from that fight that shows Williams lying prone on the canvas, similar to the one taken just after Liston went down in their second fight.
Secondly I would replace Charles with Tyson. Whatever about Tyson the man, few can argue with the statistics of his early boxing years. His headmovement made him extremely difficult to hit and his punching power maybe second only to Foreman. He will not be remembered for the calibre of the men he fought or quality career longevity, but on his day he is capable of beating most of the entrants in anyone’s top ten.
Finally I think Lewis’s name even being mentioned is simply laughable.
Lists similar to this are very difficult to judge, but everyone has their 2 cents, and that is great. Especially for fanatics on boxing like me.
Styles make fights so it is difficult to find the right criteria to rank people. for example, if Ali fought Norton 10 times, IMHO Ali would win 6 times. If foreman fought Norton 10 times Foreman would win all 10, probably within 3 rounds each time. Does that mean Foreman destroys Ali, obviously not…..
So I will use a system of ranking by who would win the most fights if each of the top heavys fought each other, similar to the current Big 6 tournament in the super Middleweights. Allora, andiamo:
1. Joe Louis
2. Gene Tunney
3. Muhammad Ali
4, Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Jack Johnson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Lennox Lewis
some of the comments on this page are mad but the worse on has to be the comment left by oisin fallon. It seems to me you know nothing about boxing and just go with popular opinion. Ali was a good boxer at best in an era of slow sluggish heavyweights and still struggled with bums like norton and frazier. Also how could you say the mention of lewis is laughable. Look at the facts. Berbick beat Ali, Tyson beat Berbick, and lewis destroyed Tyson. I bet you only watched 3 or 4 boxing fights and now consider yourself a fan
Some of the comments made on this topic and mad but the worse one was by Oisin Fallon. It seems to me you fust go by popular opinion. Ali was a good heavyweight in an era of slow sluggish heavyweights with no skill or class and he still struggled with bums like Norton and Frazier. Also could you say the mention of Lewis is laughable. Just look at the facts. Berbick beat Ali, Tyson beat Brebick and lewis destroyed Tyson. I bet you watched 3 of 4 fights and now consider yourself a fan but its quite obvious you know nothing about the sport.
Apologies if my comment has caused you to throw a hissy fit Joe.
However your comments speak for themselves. It is quite obvious to any informed fan of the sport that you are in fact the one who knows little about the art of boxing. Your support for your country man is to be commended though, however missguided.
Good list overall. I’m okay with it, as it’s hard to judge fighters of different eras. You have to look at what they did for the sport at the time, how dominant they were against their competition. Interesting comments by Bob Smith about Liston. Ali did avoid some of those fighters coming up, but many young fighters do that. He did fight Foley and Williams (especially) when they were too old. But he won many big fights, and helped change the sport.
Overall, I think Sonny Liston and Lennox Lewis belong in the top 10. Even George Foreman said Lewis at his peak was as good as anyone ever. Larry Holmes belongs higher, as he won every fight he had for a long time with great skill.
Tyson and Holyfield don’t belong on the list, though maybe top 25. Mike was ferocious, but had a single mindset and lost top fights against those he couldn’t intimidate. Evander lost key fights to Bowe and Lewis.
Would have liked to have seen more talk on forgotten fighters, like Harry Wills, Sam Langford (really a LW), or Jack Janette.
“Tyson in 1986-89 would’ve wrecked anybody in the history of boxing.”
Go back and look at those fights. Tyson fought a bunch of bums. He doesn’t really look that skilled in retrospect. Forget Ali, Tyson couldn’t beat Frazier. They are similar fighters but Frazier’s left hook was much faster and harder than anything Tyson had. Plus Frazier had character. No way he quits or bites an opponent. Tyson just bullied guys who were either bought off or had no skills. Ali is #1. He fought better opponents then Louis.
“Watch Sonny Liston’s fights.”
OK, if we can agree that the Ali-Liston fights were fixed then we have to do the same for Tyson-Spinks. I didn’t see a bunch landed in that one yet there was Spinks on the canvas.
Why has it all of a sudden become fashionable to say that Ali was overrated? His achievements and technical ability/style are clearly the greatest in the history of the Heavyweight division. Tyson would have beaten him? WHAT A JOKE!!! Ali beat Liston x 2, Shavers and Foreman who were all bigger punchers than Tyson and he never hit the canvass against any of them. He also beat Norton x 2, Williams and Frazier x 2, who were great punchers as well. Fast-handed slicksters such as Patterson were also put to the sword by Ali; the level of opposition he beat is staggering.
Let’s compare that to Tyson. His best wins are against an over-the-hill ghost of Holmes and Spinks, who was a natural Light-Heavyweight. Tyson ducked Lewis in the 1990’s as well. Tyson fought two world-class, prime Heavyweights in his career and got KO’d both times! He also lost every single close fight he was in; he had no heart once the going got tough. I admit that his title reign was very good, but never great; his wins against the likes of Berbick, Smith, Tucker, Tubbs and Bruno hardly compare to the guys that Ali fought and beat.
Holmes deserves a top 5 place; absolutely brilliant fighter. Ducked nobody, could get up off the deck to win when he needed to and had probably the best jab in Heavyweight history.
But Ali is the clear number 1, even though he lost 3 years (which may have been his best) due to the Vietnam issue. The Ali of 1964-1967 was the most perfect Heavyweight of all time. Best hand speed ever seen in the Heavyweight division, a much bigger puncher than people gave him credit for and lightning-fast reflexes and footwork. He had the best chin as well, as opposed to Joe Louis who was KO’d by Schmeling, floored and deserved to lose a decision against Walcott, KO’s by Marciano, was knocked down by Braddock and was out on his feet against Conn.
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Holmes
5. Dempsey
6. Lewis
7. Holyfield
8. Frazier
9. Foreman
10.Johnson
I hate these dimwits that always rave on about Mike Tyson in his prime…its a sure sign that somebody hasnt got a clue what they are talkin about..in my opinion Lennox Lewis is missing from that list and to ruffle a few feathers i will say that Vitali Klitschko is also missing..Some say he’s boring and over-rated (due to the somewhat poor competition out there) but look at his KO percentage, the highest ever…and if u saw that uppercut that he took off of Lewis in ‘03 u’ll understand why he has never even been on his arse once in his carreer…he’s intelligent in the ring aswell, he might not be as exciting to watch as others but his style is very effective.
I’m totally floored by this list! How someone can put Larry Holmes at the very bottom of a top ten heavyweight list is a mystery to me! He is second of all time behind Joe Louis in title defenses with 20, he is second of all time having a heavyweight championship reign of 7 1/2 years and he is second behind Rocky Marciano with most wins without a defeat which was 48. These records speak for themselves. His opposition may not have been as great as Ali’s but it was certainly better than everyone else’s on this list which would make him second in that category as well! He beat Earnie Shavers twice, Ken Norton for the title, an undefeated Jerry Cooney who was knocking everyone out at the time, a young and undefeated talented fighter in Tim Witherspoon, etc. This is not to mention his sparring experience against fighters like Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier which he did very well against before he even became a professional. He fought every concievable style and always found a way to win. He had one of the greatest fighting hearts in boxing history. He possesed the best jab out of any other heavyweights in the sport. He also had a better chin than the top two fighters on your list. Joe Louis was knocked down at least a half a dozen times in during his reign and so was Muhammad ali. Louis was knocked out by schmeling, was was floored three times by Jersey Joe Walcott, A fat and sloppy club fighter by the name of “Two ton Tony Galento” put him on the canvas and I believe that Billy Conn who was a light heavyweight knocked him down as well in one of their fights. Can you imagine Louis taking a punch from Earnie Shavers? As for Muhammad Ali, he was floored early on by a fighter who I can’t remember the name of off hand but I can look it up if you’d like, he was leveled again by Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper almost knocked him through the ropes with a devistating left hook, Joe Frazier sent him to the canvas once again with his Philadelphia left hook and Chuck Wepner knocked him down with a body shot! Don’t try to tell me that these guys had great chins! What they had was outstanding recooperative powers and there’s a difference. Larry Holmes had that as well but he only tasted the canvas twice. Once by a perfect right hand from Earnie Shavers which would have knocked almost anyone else out and the other was by a Renaldo Snipes sneaky right hand that caught Holmes off guard. That’s only twice that he was off his feet vs. these other guys. I agree that Joe Louis was the greatest technician in the ring and had the most all around skill but Larry Holmes was right behind him. A also agree that Muhammad Ali was the most athletic heavyweight of all time but once again, Larry Holmes was right behind him! I can’t think of another heavyweight champion who had a combination of both more than Holmes. That alone, puts him very high on the list but then when you add his record and accomplishments to it, somebody needs to change the pecking order! Larry Holmes is at least number two on my list.
To comment further on Larry Holmes, I think that the reason why he doesn’t get the credit he deserves is because of the fights that took place during the twilight of his career. That’s what people tend to remember. He was in his mid to late 30’s in both Michael Spinks fights and I don’t believe that he lost the second one. He was jobbed. Never the less, he didn’t look good in those fights and his best years were behind him. Then he tried to come back as an out of shape 38 year old and fought a prime Mike Tyson without any tune up fights! It’s absurd that his handlers even allowed him to do that. I can’t think of anyone in heavyweight history who could have pulled that off. Finally, he came back at 42 and did well with all things considered by beating an undefeated Ray Mercer and making a fight out of it with Evander Holyfield who was a champion in his prime at the time. These moments past his first 48 straight wins are checkered but he still did accomplish some good things. However, when we think about Larry Holmes, we should be remembering his complete shut out of Earnie Shavers in their first fight, his early dominance of Ken Norton winning the first 5 out of 6 rounds in their title fight and his TKO of Earnie Shavers in their second fight. He went on to demolish Leon Spinks in his next fight and then he tied the record of 8 straight knock outs in title defenses which I forgot to add to my list above! This was Holmes in his prime and it’s tough to think of anyone outside of Muhammad Ali who might have been better!
The reason why Lennox Lewis is not on that list is because he got knocked out twice in his prime by mediocre fighters! He was an outstanding fighter but he was inconsistant as well and you can’t put someone on a top 10 list who suffered those kinds of defeats. That’s the reason why I don’t think that Joe Louis should be number one either. How can you rate guys who get knocked out in their prime over guys who never even lost in their prime? How can Joe Frazier be rated above Larry Holmes when he was knocked down 6 times in one fight alone and stopped 3 times during his career when Holmes was only knocked down twice and was never knocked out during his reign as heavyweight champion? How can George Foreman be rated below Gene Tunney when foreman is a two time heavyweight champion, has the highest knock out percentage in heavyweight championship history and has a record that’s twice as great as Tunny’s? Everyone knows that Tunny was down for a 14 count during his rematch with Dempsey which means that he was knocked out himself! So was big George against Ali but never the less, Tunney over Foreman? And don’t ask me why Jack Dempsey would be rated higher than a fighter who retired undefeated with a 49-0 record, 43 knock outs! Give me a break with this list. I think this guy threw the order that he has out there just to piss people off and raise contraversy!
I think you can add Evander Holyfield to that list – a three time heavyweight champion, Sonny Liston to that list – one of the most feared fighters ever and Lennox Lewis on that list – avenged his losses and retired by beating everyone he faced in the ring. Then you can take off Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles and Joe Frazier.
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Larry Holmes
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Lennox Lewis
6. George Foreman
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Evander Holyfield
i would like you people to know that ali was not the greatest heavyweight champ of all time.He was beaten by lightheavy doug jones,had problems billy daniels and old alonza johnson, Ali was allowed to fowl opponents at will,he was adirty fighter.In the first part of his career,he was abetter fighter and had problems with ageing old fighters.Ali only had one win against Frazier and Norton,Ali was allways favourite to win at all cost.His personality add about 25 points to his boxing,while Sony Liston lost 30 points because of his personality.There is no way that ali could have beaten Louis,liston ,Lewis,Johnson,Marciano or Dempsey .He was almost Koyed byCooper,saved by the bell and then a funny split glove.The best champions were LEWIS,LOUIS,LISTON MARCIANO,JOHNSON,DEMPSEY,JEFFRIES,ALI,FOREMAN,CHARLES.
Why is Mike Tyson not mentioned on anyone’s list?
Good list. However I would rank Joe fraizer , mike Tyson , evander hollyfield and Lennox Lewis somewhere in there. If we went by statistics rocky Marciano would be the greatest. Tyson sad Ali was the best. Ali said Tyson was the “real champ” … So it’s debatable ..
Everyone has their own top 10 list. What distinguishes an all time great heavyweight from another heavyweight is the era in which they fought in. You break those great fighters in each era down and face them against each other.
The biggest “debate” seems to be the inclusion of none other than Mike Tyson. Was he overrated? Underrated? Deserving to be on this list? Look at it like this: At his best, on his best day, when his chin is like concrete, against any other fighter on here on their best day, can anyone match him? He would be number 1. However, longevity plays a huge factor in determining the greatest of all time.
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Joe Frazier
10. Sonny Liston
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Lennox Lewis
14. Gene Tunney
15. Joe Walcott
1.Rocky Marciano
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Joe Louis
4.George Foreman
5.Evander Holyfield
6.Mike Tyson
7.Lennox Lewis
8.Joe Frazier
9.Larry Holmes
10.Jack Dempsey
tyson is not overrated he beat everyone they put in front of him from 85-90..it was not his fault the heavyweights of the 80s were not that talented as a whole..his skill level and punching power was unbelivable. he had great head movement and was a great finisher when he had his opponent hurt
My problems would be with the fact that Ali would be number 1 on my list and that larry holmes was so underrated he could go as high as 5 or 6 i also think tyson needs to be in top ten
1-Ali
2-Louis
3-Johnson
4-Marciano
5-Foreman
6-Holmes
7-Frazier
8-Dempsey
9-Tyson
10-Charles
I do swicth between charles and liston a lot at number ten and i could see an argument that i underated dempsey
Tyson from 1985 to 1988 was the greatest fighter of all time never in a boxers career has the decline of a fighter been so rapid. From 1989 tyson was a completely different fighter one who earned 20 million a fight didnt want to train only party, his fight career was really over look at the fights no combinations, one punch, didnt move his head any one with a little skill had a chance of beating him and boy could he take a beating he had a granite chin.
To make a top ten list is really up to what type of fighter you like ask anyone who the current heavyweight champ is they dont even know what youre talking about there hasnt been an undisputed champ since tyson what does that say about the sport.
Ali was overated.He held all the time, was given decisions when should have lost etc….
I think Mike Tyson should be atleast number 7 on this list as he had one hell of a defense (he had superb head movement and generally superb) and he may not have been the hardest hitter (Second only to Foreman) but he was patient (Now I haven’t seen alot of Foreman’s fights and I only recently watched Ali – Foreman fight again) He seemed reliant on heavy punching and Tyson had patience and a great punch, he’d wait until his opponent was at his weakest and strike. Now if he hadn’t screwed up his boxing career and hadn’t let his “Iron man” Tyson demeanour he probably could have been number 2 or 3. Also, how can you say Tyson fought a bunch of bums when that was really the best the heavyweight divison could offer at the time (1986-89). Tyson only had a good five years and if he managed to stay clean and bhave himself imagine his record after only 5 years it was 41-1, and he retired in 2005. So if he had another 14 years his record could be around in the 80-3 (It’s a bit far fetched but if you can understand what I’m trying to get at). Mike Tyson wasn’t Mike Tyson after 1991 which is a shame as he could have been the greatest.
ali number one. what is this? no man could beat him in his prime. too smart, too fast. rumble young man rumble!
Tyson,Holyfield and Lewis would be on there instead of Ezzard Charles,Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey for me.
Tyson cleaned up the division when it was most needed…as for the quality of his opposition, if opponents are the benchmark, who are the great heavyweights that Dempsey beat?
His losses to Tunney are as significant as Tyson’s losses to Holyfield.
Same for Charles. If you want to include his win over Louis, then you have to give Tyson credit for being the only person to knockout Larry Holmes too.
Tunney scored big wins over Dempsey…but what else did he do as a heavyweight? Lewis, Holyfield and yes,Tyson, did more at that weight.
For me the whole reason why I got into boxing was because of Mike Tyson. I remember when he was heavyweight champion, he was like the fighters of old. He was dominant, he came to fight and he was exciting. It was hard not to like him during that time.
Before his much ballyhooed downfall, his 9 successful defenses of the title were the 4th best in heavyweight history behind only Joe Louis, Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali.
Tyson unified the championship one belt at a time, something that had never been done before and hasn’t been done since.
As for his opposition, they weren’t marquee names but they were solid. Tony Tubbs was a good fighter. Tyson used an inside game that made TNT do the “pimp limp” in the 2nd round. Pinklon Thomas showed up for the Tyson fight, was not afraid and put together a hell of an effort but he failed. Trevor Berbick was tough, Bonecrusher Smith could punch but was unfortunately afraid. Larry Merchant and a few others picked Tyrell Biggs to beat Mike Tyson. Razor Ruddock was a dangerous fighter when Mike faced him. In fact both Riddick Bowe and Evander Holyfield avoided him. It was Lennox Lewis who had the balls to step up and face him. Carl Williams oddly enough was better than Buster Douglas but couldn’t avoid the left hook.
Tyson is the only man to knockout Larry Holmes. Holmes came back 4 years later to defeat Ray Mercer (more handily than Holyfield and Lewis) and lost a tough fight to Holyfield by decision, and later lost a razor thin decision to Oliver McCall who was coming off a 2nd round KO of Lewis. Holmes might have been past his prime against Tyson but was far from washed up.
Tyson destroyed Michael Spinks in 91 seconds. Spinks might have been a blown up light heavyweight, but look how other light heavies did in their attempt to win the heavyweight championship:
Gene Tunney beat Jack Dempsey twice.
Joe Louis took a lot more than 91 seconds to get to Billy Conn.
Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles gave Rocky Marciano all he could handle.
Michael Moorer defeated prime Holyfield.
Roy Jones humiliated John Ruiz.
Tomasz Adamek beat Chris Arreola, who was one of Vitaly Klitschko’s best wins.
And of course Spinks beat Larry Holmes twice.
From 1987-1989 Tyson was ranked #1 in the pound for pound ratings according to Ring magazine and public opinion. This is taking into account that Donald Curry, Marvin Hagler and Julio Cesar Chavez were active fighters. Tyson was that good.
His comeback may have been unsuccessful to the extent that he didn’t dominate like he was expected to, but…
What did Sonny Liston do after he lost the title?
What about Frazier?
Dempsey?
As for his resume?
When you compare it to George Foreman or Joe Frazier or Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano.
Tyson has more consecutive title defenses/title wins and has beaten more ranked contenders than these men.
Foreman has 76 wins, take the top 20 names from his resume and compare them to Tyson’s top 20 names and you’ll notice how hard it is find 20 good names for George.
My top 15 all time heavyweight list…
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Jack Johnson
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Mike Tyson
8. Lennox Lewis
9. George Foreman
10. Joe Frazier
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Sonny Liston
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Floyd Patterson
Klitchko is hands down the best ever. Nobody has ever even knocked him down !!! No boxer can make this claim. Btw the way he was winning the Lewis fight when the crooked doctor called it. Facts are facts, and who is still the champ??
Here’s my list: 1. Joe louis 2. Rocky Marciano (49-0,43 ko’s)3. Ali 4. Jack Dempsey 5. Jack Johnson 6. Larry Holmes 7.Joe Frazier 8. Gene tunney 9. Klitchko 10. Lennox Lewis
Did someone at this post actually say who is Ezzard Charles? At his best he was as great a fighter as has ever been in boxing and if you don’t know that you have no business commenting on boxing history ever. Good to see Louis getting his due respect. Charles and Tunney were both all time greats but were better at light heavy although neither ever held or even fought for that belt. Holmes and Frazier the two most underrated. Mike Tyson was overrated. The two biggest wins he had were against a past his prime blown up light heavy who was in the right place at the right time[although a great light heavyweight] and a washed up great in Holmes. The best opponents he beat were Tony Tucker in 87 and Razor Ruddock twice in 91 and he struggled with both of them. He was destroyed at the age of 23 by Buster Douglas.
Vitali is certainly not the only fighter with that claim. Not a Lewis fan but crooked doctor? That cut required 80 stitches.
Dempsey wasn’t allowed to face black challengers because his promoter Tex Ricard had promoted the 1910 Johnson- Jeffries fight and was afraid of the same kind of violence that happened after that fight happening again. Before he was champion Dempsey fought and beat black fighters. The only black contender at the time was Harry Wills and in the long run not getting a shot at Dempsey gave him a better reputation than he earned. Wills was the kind of big, slow fighter that Dempsey destroyed.